altocello | Reccing vs Reposting; fandom etiquette musings

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Reccing vs Reposting; fandom etiquette musings

I was going to do some drawing tonight, but ended up doing this instead. This needs saying.

OK, so I just thought I'd post a note after all the kerfuffle on tumblr today regarding a totally amazing piece of art that was posted at the

merlin_art_fest. The gorgeous piece of art in question can be found here at the art fest, where you should leave it love in the form of a comment if you appreciate it at all. Personally, I think you'd have to not have a pulse to not appreciate it, but that's me, lol.

And I want to say that this is me just getting this off my chest. No fingers being pointed other than the parties directly involved in this particular case.

ANYWAY. The point being, some knucklehead on tumblr decided to not read the rather POINTED and CLEAR statement just below the art, in which it was stated that the art was NOT TO BE REPOSTED ANYWHERE without the artist's express permission. Given that the art fest is currently anonymous, there is NO WAY to get the artist's permission. But this person posted the art to their tumblr anyway. Not a LINK to the post with the art, but the actual image itself.

Now, being amazing, it attracted a lot of positive attention. Which is lovely, except that none of that attention was given to the ARTIST. It was all being given to the knucklehead, who had nothing to do with actually creating the art. I don't care if the artist doesn't have a tumblr. I don't care if you have the attention span and patience of a gnat. You ask the artist if it's okay, FIRST.

My confusion and frustration has to do with why it seems to not be clear that re-posting someone's art without permission is not cool. The analogy I've seen a lot from various friends today has been that you wouldn't repost a fic in it's entirety, that would be blatant plagarism, so why is it somehow perceived as OK to do it with art? That, somehow, posting to a platform that the artist doesn't have an account for is doing them a FAVOR somehow. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't post your fic to AO3 for you, please don't post my art to tumblr for me.

My feelings on this are that it would have been fine to flail about how lovely the art was and to post a LINK to the original post, where others could also leave happy comments in a place where the artist can receive due credit. Essentially, a rec post.

I have had several of my pieces re-posted to tumblr (and one to facebook, oddly), most without my knowledge. In every case so far, the person reposting has always credited me and provided a link back to my original post where they found the art. That makes it marginally better. But I would have been much happier if they had just ASKED ME FIRST. Instead of me hearing about it from a friend, or me finding it by doing a vanity google. Which I do, from time to time, just to see if anyone has lifted any of my stuff recently. Which is pretty sad, really.

I mean, I know it's the internet, and that once it's online, it's not really just mine anymore.

Except that, really, it IS. I deserve credit for making it, and I deserve to see if it makes people happy, and I deserve to read the comments, because that's the ONLY payment I will ever receive for any of it.

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THIS! ALL OF IT! ♥

Thanks, kitty! You have my EXPRESS PERMISSION to point at this post all you want, OK?

Thanks you! I have done so once... and I may very likely do so again! :D

*loves*

100% agreed. Couldn't have put it better myself...esp cuz I am not so coherent when I am angry.

Oh, it wasn't very coherent the first time around, in my head, lol. But tomato and I tweeted back and forth at each other and the bones of what I wanted to say became clearer.

I totally agree. There was a kerfluffle recently too about somebody reposting other people's fics to their own site, not claiming credit, but also not telling the authors.

The only word I have for that is.... egregious. There is simply no excuse for "not knowing" that's wrong! Jeez.

+ eleventy billion my friend.

*hugs* Thanks for being in the trenches for us artist types today, tomato!

This irks me too. I always feel a little iffy when I'm unable to include a signature or watermark to my works. I've been thinking of asking whether mods would mind adding a watermark of some sort (e.g. a sentence like "this artwork is a submission for the ___ fest 2013") to the bottom corner of anon artworks as a precaution. It wouldn't help much when it comes reposting works, but at the very least, it will help people trace the artwork back to the fest and/or prevent ppl from using a "clean" piece of work, if that makes any sense.

Good idea! Will be done in my next fests. :)

Oh, yay! I'm going to ask around to see if my co-mods would mind doing this for our fests too. :)

I think that's an excellent idea that deserves some serious consideration by mods of future anon art fests!

rather POINTED and CLEAR statement just below the art, in which it was stated that the art was NOT TO BE REPOSTED ANYWHERE without the artist's express permission.

I completely agree with you on this and the frustrating downside of Tumblr, but below the art, it says "do not use it..." The word "repost" is not specifically used.
This artwork is the sole property of the artist who created it.
Please do not use it, in whole or in part, without the expressed consent of the artist.

For me, I don't see use and repost as synonyms. If others do, then I'm the odd person out here. To me, do not use means do not use the image to make graphics without expressed consent. Do not repost means as you say, someone who's not the artist sticking the original image on Tumblr for example and having people reblog it without the artist knowing the true level of appreciation their artwork is receiving.

I think to better the rule, "do not repost" should explicitly be mentioned to add to the do not use. Since people are reposting on Tumblr, then maybe they've been deciding "do not use" only applies to graphics-making with another's work not to a simple reposting of the unaltered work...

ETA: This issue was brought up at the Merlin art fest comm so the mods are aware of it. Sorry for addressing it here too ... I guess in the end people should take "do not use" as meaning do not repost at all without consent.

Edited 2013-03-15 15:05 (UTC)

No worries, I think it's something we all should talk about. It's clear there are some fundamental and persistant misunderstandings about art etiquette. I'm not sure WHY it's so complicated, but it is. The important part is the consent. Why is it so hard to ask? Or, if it's anon, why is it so hard to wait for the reveal and THEN ask? If you can't wait, why not just REC it?

"Use" does imply that you make some kind of transformation on the work, ie take the manip and make it a part of another manip, or do a drawing based on it. And that's a pretty common sense thing to NOT do with someone art without asking them about it first. Though there are folks who don't understand that either. Reni had to chase one down last year and report them to the Stop Plagiarism folks.

"Reposting" seems to be something that a lot of fans are OK with, but I stand by my analogy of reposting art as being like me reposting a fic in it's entirety on my DeviantArt journal with a note on the end saying, "Oh, BTW, it's not mine, it's this person's". Put that way, it's obvious that it's really NOT okay.

And I agree that this highlights that perhaps the note on the art fest pieces should include something SPECIFIC about not reposting, though I would have thought that an *unsigned, anonymous* piece of art would be a rather obvious POOR choice to repost, as it would be so EASY for someone unscrupulous to STEAL. Especially since no permission was asked for from the artist, because it's anonymous. But that's me, speaking from my perspective.

This is not fucking okay. I am so angry right now. Please tell me the knucklehead has apologised, at the very least.

Said knucklehead got chased by

fuzzytomato02 and the mods, and has apologized. It may have taken the mods intervention to GET said apology, but it was given. So that's something.

I am so angry right now. I've found several things of mine reposted today after nice people let me know it was happening. Stupid, rude people,.Fuck it. Makes me want to just.... stop. Everything.

I would be SO SAD if you did! Tell them to take it down, contact tumblr!

It's ok. I've sent messages and reblogged their posts with a very clear message about where the original posts are... that's all you can really do. These people in particular have reposted LOTS of different art from different fandoms. No respect >:\

DUDE, I wish the mods would ban folks like that. It's clear they just DON'T GET IT.

All of this!

I used to make icons, which is nothing like creating unique art, but someone reposted them once as hers and I was furious (and I'm a generally calm person). How someone feels when they've created the image themselves I hate to think.

LIVID. I know someone who's had that happen, more than once, and it never gets any better. And icons count as art; they take time and effort and skill to make well!

People just ignore statements like that. I've had my art reposted on Tumblr multiple times (from my own Tumblr - which seems kind of ridiculous, doesn't it? Just click 'reblog'!) and they even cropped out the signature and watermark (making the picture small and blurry in the process), so... yeah. If someone wants to repost, they will repost, whether there's a statement or not.

I reported the first person who did it, and it was taken care of in less than a day (you go, Tumblr support!). After that, I never really bothered to let them know anymore cause as soon as the post gets a few reblogs on Tumblr, there isn't really much you can do cause it's out there, whether they delete the "original" post from the reposter's blog or not.

These days, I make sure to always make my watermark/signature hard to crop out (in the center of the pic, rather than the corners), so that even if it does get reposted, people can find the original source.

For fests... I like

phoenixacid's idea :) Or - crazy thought, let the fest post the art on Tumblr. Of course even then, should the artist want to post her own art on Tumblr afterwards, most people will already have reblogged it from the fest's Tumblr and she won't get many notes anyway.

There's no ideal solution, but putting the DO NOT STEAL note ON the artwork, rather than below it would probably help a lot already :)

Hey! If you report to Tumblr, Support takes down the original including all reblogs. So it's not a lost hope. But I do understand that it gets tiring. :)

Oh really? Huh, I didn't know that. Good to know! :)

I like huey's idea of the watermark for the work while it's anonymous, as it makes it possible to track it to a source. And yeah, some people have NO shame.

I totally agree. See, I'm between the line of DO NOT REPOST AT ALL because I do understand art rec blogs and stuff, but this was for an anon fest, and it HADN'T been posted anywhere else. And their credit was a tiny "x" after three lines of their "feels".

It wouldn't have been so galling if they had put big captions: Art by anon at the merlin_art_fest. Although it'd still be wrong because THE ART FEST HASN'T CONCLUDED. argh.

I get art rec blogs, I've a had a few of my things posted (without my permission given first) at Merlinfanartrecs, and I don't have the heart to be too upset about it because they did credit me, but for crying out loud, ASK FIRST. And, absolutely, if there's no name on it yet, because it anon, be patient and WAIT. And THEN ask. And if they say, no image, respect that and just post a description and a link!

EXACTLY why I've removed ALL my fanart and decided never to draw fanart anymore. People just don't get it. Not only are artists underappreciated compared to writers, people also seem to think they need much less appreciation or feedback. Also, how much time does someone spend looking at a pic that took quite a lot of time to draw? A few seconds? Maybe half a minute? (And that's quite long, too.)

It doesn't only happen here, it also happens on DA, that's the sad thing. You can point out that you don't want your art reposted without permission as much as you like, you'll always find enough morons to ignore you completely.

Oh, and what's really bad about it, some absolutely fabulous artists like Sherant and others have completely disappeared, and don't even post original art anywhere. :(

Edited 2013-03-15 14:25 (UTC)

It is one of those things, that a picture really is worth 1K words, or (a lot!) more, and yet can be taken in in just a fraction of a second. Amazing, really, but it does lead to a lack of appreciation of the effort involved.

For me, I figure that the process of creating the art is as much a part of the satisfaction I get as any comments I might receive. It's amazingly lovely to get positive feedback, and that helps fuel the creative engine, but my pieces don't generate huge amounts of traffic. Like, ever. Not even when they were recced "for me" on tumblr, which is something to be thankful for, I guess.

And YES, there is always the "but I didn't see it" or "but this is DIFFERENT" people. Sigh.

Sad to know it's led to artists leaving fandoms. We're all the poorer when someone steals someone else's creation.

You're right, creating art is indeed a bit part of the satisfaction, but getting positive feedback does fuel the enthusiasm. At least it does for me, and I used to get quite annoyed when I saw my pics appearing in areas I never would have suspected. (I once even found a photo I had shot on a site advertising some therapies O.o - Nobody ever asked me for permission to use that photo) I think it's even worse when it comes to art that one has taken the trouble to draw.

Lol, I've stopped doing fanart because I thought exactly that: No traffic, no danger. Nobody would bother to steal the things I post now because they're neither mainsteam nor popular. I still enjoy the creative process, and I have a handful of nice people on DA who seem to like my style, whatever I post, so I'm quite happy with my small circle, and I'm not worried about my pics cropping up on Tumblr or other sites of that kind. :D

It certainly has it perks not to be overly popular. *grins* Makes one less vulnerable and not such a subject of greed.

I'm really very saddened by the disappearance of some of my favourites. They were high quality arstist, and now I cannot find anything by them anymore. ;_; I guess they got fed up with the like-it-grab-it mentality.

(late reply is late, I am sorry!)

The feedback makes you want to make MORE. So, yes, leaving happy thoughts and praise for any creative is just a feel-good positive feedback loop. And asking is just POLITE.

In a way, being in that place between NNF and BNF is fairly uncomfortable for me. If I'm a NNF, I get no love at all, but no one would take my stuff. If I'm a BNF, it's obvious when something is mine, and therefore it's not any harder to steal but more obvious that it IS stolen because it's recognizable to a lot of fans as being MINE. Somewhere in between is where your stuff gets noticed, pinched, and the person gets away with it. And most artist's are in that in between place.

But yes, it's always sad to see a talented artist chased off by piracy. That just sucks. :(

Oh, never mind! :D At least you DID reply. *grins*

True, true! Recognition and feedback are a mighty fuel to creativity. As for asking, well, the online generation apparently still has to learn manners, which wouldn't be easy, I guess.

TBH I've never actually been a real fan. I got sucked into that world by a coincidence, when I stumbled upon

naadi's work and did a single "fanart" for her beautiful fic "Checkmate". She was the one to invite me to join LJ and I had to grope my way through the jungle of fandom, encountering quite a lot of different creatures, from the cute to the monstrous.

Some aspects I liked, but some bothered me quite a lot. Greed, drama and art theft were the ones that annoyed me most.

Ah, well, it's behind me, now, but it took me quite a while to extricate myself from that entanglement. I guess something similar is what happened with some of those artists. The negative aspects of fandom just overpowered the good ones. One feels so helpless at times. (After doing some research recently, I've actually discovered quite a lot of my art on Tumblr, which makes me want to growl - and not in a good way. Not one single pic was posted there with my permission. Well, there was a link referring to my DA page, but if I hadn't done the research, I'd never have known.)

OK, so that's enough of a rant, lol. I'm sorry to have bothered you with my blabber.<3

No worries! I created this post so that there would be a place for folks to have a discussion about stuff like this. It's just good to get it out in the open. Thanks for participating! <3

I get where you are coming from. Sometimes I think I really should start signing my pieces. But I just can't bring myself to do it.

One thing I have noticed is that fandom treats art and fic differently. As if creating art is somehow easier (well to me it is, but that's completely besides the point) and as such requires less respect. You are so right. No one would ever post a whole fic without citing the author, but I frequently find art without reference to the artist.

*sigh*

I sitll just sign them in the corner. I know that someone, eventually, will have the brilliant idea to cut the corner off, but I'm hoping that's a day that takes a LONG time getting here.

And yes, I think it has to do with the fact that humans are so very visual, and we can process those 1000 words the art is giving to us in picture form in less than a second. Fic just takes longer to absorb. Art is almost instantaneous.

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Reccing vs Reposting; fandom etiquette musings

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